Showing posts with label capacity loss. Show all posts
Showing posts with label capacity loss. Show all posts

Tuesday, August 12, 2014

One of the first Nissan LEAF Battery Swap Under Warranty - USA

Here is an early 2011 Nissan LEAF adopter who lost some significant range on his battery pack: 9 bars and more than 70% left only at 47,000 miles
Nissan offers a swap for the newest 2015 pack version for free at his regular dealer in California





Source: Inside EVs 



Thursday, October 17, 2013

Vectrix NiMH Battery Pack Self Discharge after 4 weeks

Busy with another activity, I did not use my Vectrix in the last 4 weeks, and like it happened while I was on vacation, for the same duration, the Battery Pack shows a loss of 4 bars after 4 weeks, so it is like 1 bar per week

Also Voltage is showing 130V, and it is usually around 141-143 after a full charge, and the lower limit of 125V triggers the Red warning on the dashboard

So this time, I plugged it a full refill during the night 


Next morning, this is what I got: Fully charged and 139V

And 2kWh used to fill up ... I usually use 2.2kWh after a 5 to 6 bars use, so I was not very far from that

I then went for a good 25km ride and plugged it again to charge overnight
This morning, it shows 141V, so it is getting better I think

And exactly the same 2kWh consumption 

I will ride it like I did fro the last 3 years, having lunch with my former colleagues in Saint Ouen ... 

Monday, October 29, 2012

LiFePO4 Battery Charging Method - Don't Ruin your Expensive Cells !

and don't Burn your house !!

I learned this saturday that the new Vectrix Li and Vectrix Li+ have battery problems: These Electric Scooters here cost 11,000 and 12,500 EUR, which is a lot of money; If at this price you have problems, it is not possible ! As a result the dealer I met told me he was going to stop selling them and close his Electric Scooter business... He also told me that Vectrix may not be imported in France anymore because it is not selling ! I am very disappointed to hear that this great scooter might not be available anymore and even more knowing that it is only a Battery Management Problem Again !!



The same day I decided to write this post to try spread the word among the EV community and maybe Vectrix USA will read this too, along with other EV makers

The Method to Charge and Discharge a LiFePO4 battery pack is Very Simple :

A lot of people think they need a BMS along with a LiFePO4 battery pack, but the only thing it is doing is damage the cells !
This is not me saying this, but Jack Rickard from EVTV : he has been converting cars to Electric Drive for 4 years now and shown by practice (real world charging & driving) that this is the best way to protect these expensive cells

It seems so simple and inexpensive that after reading this some people will still not believe it, but this is the simple reality

My EV experience (since november 2009) has proven the same thing to myself too


Typical LiFePO4 Cell Discharge Curve


Here is THE METHOD:

- Bottom Balance each cell to 2.75V (Drain them with a resistor until they reach this voltage = empty)

- Connect them in series to form a string of the desired voltage

- Under Charge the string to 3.50V * number of cells with a LiFePO4 Charger
NB: A LiFePO4 Charger charges at Constant Current, then close to the pack voltage, switches to Constant Voltage and reduces Current slowly until it reaches the set pack voltage, and eventually Shuts Down Completely)

- When discharging the battery pack, set a lower limit to 3.1V * number of cells, start alerting that you are reaching the end of the pack and reduce maximum current drawn on the controller; When the pack voltage reaches 3V * number of cells, do not go below, stop the discharge at this point by disabling the controller


That's It !!


NB:
- Bottom balancing each individual cell has to be done only once
- If you have to add some cells to the pack (to get more pack voltage), you will have to "marry in" these new cells by bottom balancing ALL the cells again (old and new ones).


This Method is based on facts: Real World EV Charging & Driving, detailed below:


-Back in 2008, Jack Rickard distroyed many cells trying to Top Balance them to perfection (keeping them at a very equal voltage); When he drove his GEM EV, as he was going towards the second half of his pack capacity, he suddenly lost several cells, because they had reached a low voltage limit of 2V, and even below, going into reversal, the stronger cells driving current through the weaker cells that had past 0V


- He explained in details, with wood sticks, how each cell has its very own capacity, and if you try to top balance each cell, you will in fact reduce even more the smaller capacity cell's capacity, and as you discharge you pack, they will be the first ones to hit a lower voltage and if you continues will be damaged or destroyed
=> His Blog post: November 13th, 2009:  "GET RID OF THOSE SHUNT BALANCING CIRCUITS !"
=> His explanation Video: EVTV News Friday Show November 13, 2009. Part 1 of 6. LiFePo4 Cell Battery Management. The truth about current shunt regulator battery management systems. Latest data indicates they do not protect cells, and can actually kill them:

Full length Video can be found at EVTV Video Archives by searching for " November 13, 2009 "
=> THIS IS A MUST WATCH 1 HOUR VIDEO


- Watch Jack Rickard explain the process has been using for years on half a dozen of converted cars, using the same tehcnic again here with the new build of Speedster Nippon (starts at 54:34)





- In early 2010, after 4 months of driving my Engineer 4kWh Prius PHEV Kit, I experienced several cells loss because of Cells Balancers, that were 24/7 drawing little current from the cells trying to have them all at he same exact voltage (it is also Top Balancing); Same as Jack Rickard, I lost one cell, then another, and did not understand why at this point... Replacing the damaged ones by brand new, I ended up drestroying some more and eventually almost burned my office underground parking while charging ! At this point I stopped everything, scared of the potential consequences of this unexplained problem ... and disconnected everything from my Prius for several months
I understood later, watching Jack's EVTV Show why this had happened and what caused it


- After that I started working on LiFePO4 Battery based  Energy Storage for Solar at home, and have been experiencing only good things, using the cells (the remaining good ones) of my Prius PHEV Kit, for a year and a half now; So there was no weak cell, but only BMS (8S Cell Balancer) causing some cells to become weak !
Jack 's Method works !


- A lot of EV converters applied his Method, and do not have any Battery problem ever since; Many of them were at EVCCON last september


- CALB has released a new serie of great LiFePO4 cells, the CA serie, replacing (?) the SE serie
If you get these amazing cells (Jack Rickard's words after Charging them at 3C and dischanging at 12C !),
and damage or destroy them because of a bad method or BMS / shunt balancers, you will be very sad ...

CALB SE Serie


CALB CA Serie (New & Very good)


* I will had more details to this post on this subject (To Be Continued) *


August 29th, 2013

BOTTOM BALANCING & UNDER-CHARGE UPDATE

To prove you that this Method works, here are videos of regular voltage checks performed on my DIY ESS Battery Pack, Bottom Balanced and installed in January 2013:

March 2013



May 2013


July 2013


October 2013
=> Conclusion: It works: All the cells are still perfectly in balance after 6 months ...

Friday, October 19, 2012

Nissan : Leaf Battery Capacity Loss Due To High Miles

It's been a few months now since reports of losses in battery capacity in Nissan LEAF electric cars began to filter out of Arizona.



Owners have complained to Nissan's Consumer Affairs group and written hundreds of posts on owner forums. In July, Nissan Americas took seven different Leafs in for a complete assessment by the technical unit at its Arizona Testing Center.

Now Nissan is starting to reveal the conclusions it's drawn from examining those seven Leafs and their battery packs.


Mark Perry, Nissan North America’s product planning and advanced technology director,discussed the company's findings exclusively with Green Car Reports.



19,000 miles or more

The common thread among the seven Leafs from Arizona, Perry said, was that all of them had covered much higher mileage than the 12,500 miles Nissan used to estimate the rate of battery capacity loss over time.

All of them had covered at least 50 percent more than that--or roughly 19,000 miles a year--and a few were "significantly higher" than that.

[UPDATE: After this article was published, Nissan used the actual mileage of the seven cars in the test to provide additional data. "The average mileage for the cars investigated was 19,600 miles, and the average in-service time was 14.7 months," wrote the company's Katherine Zachary. "Average annual mileage [of those cars] is about 16,000 per year, more than double the average Phoenix customer mileage of 7,500 miles per year."]

As a sprawling suburban city, Phoenix also requires a higher proportion of travel at freeway speeds, with relatively less time spent in low-speed urban stop-and-go traffic.

Based on those factors, Perry said, "The cars and the battery packs are behaving as we expected" given the use they've logged to date.



2011 Nissan LEAF prototype

Starting in 2009, Nissan executives have consistently said the Leaf battery pack would retain 70 to 80 percent of its charge capacity after five years--and average roughly 70 percent capacity after 10 years.

In other words, capacity loss is not linear, but quicker during the first few years than in subsequent years, assuming equivalent mileage in every year.


Assuming averages

Those projections, based on battery testing during development of the Leaf, assume the car covers 12,500 miles a year, in climates largely similar to those of Los Angeles (50 to 90 degrees F, with an average temperature of 68 or 70 degrees).

Phoenix has also just had one of its hottest summers ever, he noted.

Looking at 450 Nissan Leafs now in Arizona, Perry said, using data each car transmits to a Nissan control center, it appears that Leafs in Arizona are "on a glide path" to average battery capacity of 76 percent after five years rather than 80 percent.

The seven cars the company inspected in depth are likely to have less capacity than that after the same time.

Perry said he couldn't comment on what the company's data showed regarding frequency of charging and frequency of quick-charging for the Leafs it inspected.


Reaching out to owners

Starting on Thursday, Perry said, Nissan began reaching out to the owners of the seven cars it tested, to arrange face-to-face meetings with each of them.

The company's goal, he said, is to discuss how to satisfy those owners. "We want to make sure they're satisfied with their vehicles," Perry stressed.

He declined to suggest any remedies or compensations the company might offer, stressing that Nissan wanted to satisfy each owner individually.

Nissan has also heard from "a handful" of other Leaf owners on battery-capacity issues, he said, both those who have lost one or more bars and those who are concerned that this may happen in the future.

The company isn't now planning face-to-face talks with that larger group of owners, he said.



Leaf specialists

Instead, they should continue to discuss these issues with the Leaf electric-car specialists at the Nissan Consumer Affairs Center.

The toll-free number to reach that center is 800 877-NO-GAS-EV, or 800-664-2738.

Perry declined to go beyond "a handful" in specifying how many Leaf owners had contacted the company about the issue, although after continued questioning, he indicated it was far fewer than 100.

Perry also declined to comment on independent tests conducted by electric-car advocate and Leaf owner Tony Williams, which took place in Phoenixrecently and appeared to show range loss comparable to the indicated capacity loss in 12 Leafs tested.

"I understand what he was trying to do," Perry told Green Car Reports, "but it's hard to comment because we weren't there."



Pessimistic meter

A further issue, Perry said, the battery capacity meter in the Leaf dashboard errs on the conservative side.

Thus, he said, a loss of three of the 12 capacity bars doesn't translate to exactly a 25-percent loss of capacity. In fact, not all the bars represent equal fractions of capacity.

This had previously been discussed by Andy Palmer, Nissan's executive vice president, who alluded to capacity-loss reports as stemming from a faulty battery level display.

Perry wouldn't specify what proportion of pack loss those three bars did represent, saying it could vary with each car's use.

The company would have to dig into its data on each individual pack to get those individual figures for each Leaf, he said.


Communicating with owners

While the Leaf batteries are behaving as the company expected, Perry admitted the challenge may be that the battery capacity losses may not have been what the owners of those electric cars expected.

Our analogy for battery capacity might be something like tire wear: The more miles you put on your tires, the more they wear.

Nissan Americas requires each buyer of a new Nissan Leaf electric car to sign a disclosure form in which the new owner acknowledges that battery capacity will decline over time.

The form also suggests ways the owner can maximize battery life.


Goodwill at risk

And that may be the real issue here.

"This ceased to be a technical issue a while ago, and has long been a goodwill issue," said electric-car advocate Chelsea Sexton, "based in what the drivers perceive as a lack of adequate communication."

And, she continued, if Nissan takes a position that 'there's still nothing wrong with your cars," that message is "unlikely to go over any better than it did the last time they said it."

On the other hand, electric-car advocate Mark Larsen takes a more nuanced view, decrying the angry tone adopted by some of the Leaf owners.



Your mileage may vary?

After analyzing the 12-car independent test data published by the owners, Larsen suggests that, in essence, "your mileage may vary."

His conclusion is that the Arizona heat affects "what data the capacity gauges are gleaning from the pack, but not the capacities themselves, according to miles driven."

This all indicates that there's likely to be much more to come on this story. Stay tuned.


Source: GreenCarReports


My notes:

It seems that Mark Larsen comes to the same conclusion as Jack Rickard: It looks like it is an instrumentation problem, degraded by the heat probably, because, out of all the LEAF tested by Tony Williams in Arizona last month, the pack voltages when the turtle shows up are very different from LEAF to LEAF, some showing a much higher voltage than others .... So the capacity is there, but it can not be used, blocked by the faulty energy meter on board ... 

Wednesday, October 10, 2012

EVTV Friday Show - October 5, 2012

Just a week after EVCCON, Jack and Richard are back on EVTV; This week:
- EVCCON discussion
- New PulsaR DC-DC 150 kW fast charger
- New Speedster Nippon project begins





Jack Rickard introduces his collaborative work with NetGain Controls to design this 24kW beefy charger



Jack and Jessy have one month to build the "Nippon Speddster" and ship it to Tokyo !



Andy Palmer & Chelsea Sexton discuss the Nissan LEAF battery capacity loss issue


Tuesday, October 9, 2012

Andy Palmer and Chelsea Sexton Discuss the Nissan LEAF

Chelsea Sexton, Founder of the Lightning Rod Foundation, Consulting Producer of "Revenge of the Electric Car", and a Co-Founder of Plug In America, sits down with Andy Palmer, Executive Vice President of Nissan Motor Co., Ltd., to discuss the Nissan LEAF battery capacity loss problem encountered by some Arizona drivers.



Tuesday, October 2, 2012

No EVTV Friday Show this week - EVCCON 2012

No EVTV Friday Show this week because Jack & Brian have been hosting the second EVCCON (Electric Veicle Conversion Convention) in Cape Girardeau, MI


Just before that, Jack took the time to write in details his thoughts about the Arizona LEAF battery capacity loss problem few owners experienced and the test Tony Williams organised

As he told us last week while test driving his Cadillac El Escalade, the bottom line could be that there is no battery problem with these LEAFs (like Carlos Ghosn says), but a BMS and/or instrumentation problem ....

Here is his post: See this turtle enters a bar ... (transcript below)

See this TURTLE goes into a BAR and says to the bartender….
BY MJRICKARD ON SEPTEMBER 23, 2012 



This week, we take on a couple of oddities. The first is the Leaf range loss issue. This has been widely reported elsewhere with an inordinate amount of information I’ve found implausible. So this week we went to Tony Williams, organizer of the group in Phoenix purporting to refute a Nissan claim that there was nothing wrong with the batteries.

This call cuts so many ways I’m loathe to try to make sense of it. One thing is certain, a number of Leaf owners, otherwise delighted with the car, are very unhappy over the range issue and Nissan’s response to it.

This is enough to represent a setback to the entire movement to electric cars, and tends to confirm the fears of those who hesitate to purchase electric vehicles because of “range anxiety.”. A most unfortunate turn of events.

Nissan has been stoically obtuse in dealing with it. Part of this is the very nature of being a large corporation. In building large numbers of anything, correcting errors must needs be involves large numbers. 20,000 is not a huge number in terms of automobille manufacture, but it is still a pretty expensive number if replacing the batteries in each of them is the fix. And once they agree to replace a few battery packs, ALL Leaf owners everywhere will want theirs replaced as well on any event where they don’t get 100 miles on a charge – Nissan hoisted on the petard of their own inflated range claims.

So it is difficult to work out the real from the perceptual, and at some point perception BECOMES reality in these matters.

For us, and our viewers, we actually need to know what is happening in reality, not perceptually. There is little we can do about Nissan and the broad damage caused to the mission by their cars and their reaction. But is there anything in here we can learn from the issuance of a large number of cars and a large number of batteries into real world applications? Anything we could learn and use for examples?

So far not much. The obvious opportunity to me would be actual evidence of decreased battery capacity in hot climates. Even the Chinese engineers tell me that the cycle life would be diminished at 45C compared to 25C. But when I press for some test data on that, they first refuse, and then finally admit they haven’t actually tested it with cycle tests.

I kind of implied in the video that there is no theory or mechanism for cycle life deterioration in heat. That is not PRECISELY so. There IS a bit of a theory. It COULD be true. I can find no one who has tested it and the tests of Professor Jay Whitacre on A123 cells seems to imply MUCH longer cycle lives for these LiFePo4 cells than previously predicted. But there IS a theory.

When the battery is first manufactured, lithium exists in two places and two forms. LIthium Iron Phosphate in the cathode LiFePo4 and Lithium Carbonate in the electrolyte LiPf6. And the battery has no charge at all.

The battery is initially charged very carefully and HOW it is initially charged is in all cases secret sauce because it has a great deal to do with battery performance later. Electrons are of course pumped OFF the cathode and ON to the anode externally by a power supply. This separates an electron from the outer valence band of the Lithium in the cathode, which then loses its place in the crystal structure and deintercalates or oxidizes. As a cation (Lithium ion positive) It then migrates to the Anode side where it picks UP an electron from the anode current collector to again become lithium metal. That electron is what allows it to hold hands with the carbon crystal lattice and INTERCALATE into that structure. In doing so, the addition of the electron to the anode and removal of one from the cathode makes the anode two electrons more negative than the cathode.

As this process continues, the anode becomes increasingly negative with respect to the cathode, until all the lithium is extracted from the cathode and appears as lithium metal in the anode. At that point the battery is fully charged.

During this first formative charge, there are some consequences in the breakdown of the organic solvents used as the electrolyte. This chemical breakdown causes the deposition of a flexible layer of by product on the SURFACE of the lithium/carbon anode. This is called the Solid Electrolyte Interphase layer or SEI. This sounds bad, but it is not really all bad. The addition of lithium metal to the carbon crystal matrix causes signficant changes in volume to the structure. It is somewhat brittle and this volumetric change causes it to fracture. The SEI layer acts as kind of an epoxy cement, that holds the carbon particles in place on the copper current collector. That’a GOOD thing. But it does slow the migration of lithium ions INTO the carbon structure and OUT of the carbon structure and so presents a portion of the diffusion delay limiting the amount of power we can produce.

Though most of this happens on the FIRST charge, there continues to be a MUCH lesser decay of solvents on subsequent charges. And so this SEI layer thickens very slowly – further limiting power. Somehow, it is felt this also translates to CAPACITY though I’ve always been a little unclear how. I understand the diffusion delay increasess, and I understand total instantaneous power might decrease, but it is felt that this also plays a role in capacity reduction.

And the theory is that this breakdown of electrolytic solvents is accelerated with heat.

Can’t find ANY test data to indicate that. I understand that this MAKES SENSE to a lot of people. To me, that implies it MIGHT be true, despite so many instances of things making sense and not being true that I have a personal bias that if it DOES make sense it probably is a great sign that it ISN’T true.

So the Leaf / Phoenix association takes on a bit of interest to me personally. Might be some data there.

Arizona and Florida have long been obvious havens for electric venicles, and it has never worked out very well. That is because Pb cells – lead acid, absorbed glass mat, whatever, have DRAMATICALLY shortened life cycles at elevated temperatures. If you get 3 years from a lead pack in Oregon, you MIGHT get a full year in Florida. But you won’t in Arizona. This is widely known and thoroughly proven. But I fear that knowledge has leaked into THIS situation, and thus making sense of the resulting conversation is problematical. How many ways to say it. Li batteries are NOT an improved form of Pb battery. They are entirely different devices, with entirely different chemistries, sharing nothing but an affiliation for electrons at one end and an abhorrence of them at the other.

The controversy took on a point when Andrw Palmer, Nissan Executive Vice President who has been involved with Nissans electric vehicle projects for many years, made a public statement that they did not have a battery problem, but most likely had an instrumentation problem.

Enraged that Nissan was apparently dissing their concerns, the Nissonoids of Arizona, led by Tony Williams of San Diego, decided to do a SCIENTIFIC TEST to PROVE that the Nissan did in fact have a BATTERY PROBLME. Then they embarked on a test of RANGE. This kind of muddled thinking drives me crazy. A battery is a battery and range is range. If you think they are the SAME thing, you should try to design SCIENTIFIC TESTS. They tried to control a ridiculous number of variables like tire pressure, wind direction, elevation, temperature, the weight of the car, even ballasting the weight of the driver. But they THEN used Nissan’s instrumentation to determine range.

By ALSO using the GIDMETER, they think they have elminated that as well. Not really. The Nissan BMS monitors voltage, energy usage, and battery SOC with a Battery Management System. This system reports results on the bars displays and of course using the graphic TURTLE. More accurately, it reports it as data on a CANbus and of course the display translates that data to graphics. The GIDmeter takes the SAME CANbus data and displays it in cruder, but more complete form, as numbers. In both cases, you are using the data from the BMS.

But pack voltage, indeed individual cell voltages I think, are available on the CANbus.

And so they did a RANGE test, terminated by a TURTLE, to determine the range of the cars. All ended with a turtle, but the pack voltages at the end of the test varied WILDLY, from a low of 295 volts to a high of 352 volts. I would posit that the batteries at 352 were not at the end of charge at all, and the cells at 295 very well may have been beyond it. In other words, they have a very fickle TURTLE on the display.

And it papears that Mr. Palmer was likely correct that they have an instrumentation problem, not a battery problem. And the Phoenix group is most likelyreading messages from God in cloud formations, leaving my hopes for some actual data deriving from a number of vehicles operating in the Phoenix heat rather lying in a heap – dashed in disappointment. We don’t know. And Nissan doesn’t know. And nothing in any of this will likely tell us. A number of Nissan Leaf’s HAVE been operating in Phoenix for over a year, and we have NO results to report. Gads.

Of course, long time viewers know MY biased conclusion. The BMS – AGAIN. You most likely have some perfectly operation automobiles with perfectly capable battery packs crippled and disabled by Yet Another Bad BMS Design. YABBD. Should something be done about it? Obviously. Now what would Jack do?????

Should Nissan be the one to take the financial hit? Or should the buyers of Nissans’ cars take the hit. I vote Nissan. But they can do whatever they think is in their own best interest.

My hope is that the more savvy viewers of EVTV now have some information. I’m sorry to report you still have no data. But you now know WHY you don’t have any data and how NOT to do a battery test. It has hard to do conclusive battery testing with turtles. Bars are not much better. And representing the SAME faulty data numerically offers only slight improvement, in that we were able to get FOUR terminating voltages anyway. Enough to ascertain that the testing methodology was comically wretched.

We struggle with such testing ourselves and with instrumentation ourselves. You will note a couple of failures here at EVTV. First, I apparently pulled the mic cord on the 70 mph range test of the Cadillac Escalade. Too bad. I spumed forth many precious Rickardisms on that drive lost to us all forever. As we are still two hours and forty two minutes long, I suspect you’ll forgive me when I summarize them thusly – 834 wH per mile.

WATT HOURS? Now where did THAT come from? Don’t we usually measure amp hours? Yes we do. Why do we do that? Because that’s the only instruments we have and can afford in an EV. Watt Hours have always been preferable in that they represent in a better way the total energy use accounting for both voltage and current, while the voltage varies widely during the drive. But we haven’t had a good wattmeter to use. BEFORE you crawl up my skirt on Cycle Analyst, I HAVE one, I HAVE tested it, and it cannot even measure current accurately, so any wH it would derive would also be inaccurate.

I have worked for several months with an instrumentation company in CHina to modify one of their current meters to use a 12v supply for example, and to display WATT HOURS, VOLTAGE< and CURRENT simultaneously on the same screen. It winds up being a LARGISH meter to display all that in large numbers I can read. It is a little complicated. And it was a little difficult to exlpain to them the DC nature of our world and our ongoing disinterest in power factor and RMS values. But we got er done and I got my prototype. They are anxiously awaiting a quantity order.

one wee problem. I never really specified that it measure current in BOTH directions. As we are using a shunt, it never occured to me that their meter would measure in ONE direction only. But in going from AC to DC that’s what they did, and they do not think it’s economically viable to correct this little feature. I think it makes the meter nearly worthless. Oh, not entirely. I just have to zero it out after every drive. And it doesn’t count back down while charging. Since the JLD404 does, by using BOTH it works reasonably well. But not well enough to be a product I’m afraid. And at the price, really a disappointment. I feel foolish to have never brought it up. Both sides are worn out from trying to communicate a feature set for a meter in Chinglish. So it has kind of died as a product.

So when beating up Nissan, we have our own little design setbacks. Unlike Nissan, we are afforded the LUXURY of being able to offer a FULL REFUND to everyone that bought this killowatt meter. Of course, Im the only one who has and unfortunately the Chinese vendor is not as generous as I am so I eat the cost of the one meter delivered I’m afraid.

So I commiserate with Nissan at the cruelties of the market place. But would encourage them to address the problem with some much simpler but more accurate instrumentation. I would also note that they TOP balance and the 352 volt car might INDEED be dead, with one short cell that the BMS has noted and shut down the car. BOTTOM BALANCE INSTEAD if you must.

But in all things, I think Nissan should strive for a collegial and consensual relationship with their early customers, and avoid allowing this to become an adversarial relationship over ducats. With 20,000 cars down, and a new car plant AND a new battery plant coming online in Tennessee, the stakes are actually quite high and the lessons learned bill really pretty low by comparison.

I like Teslas approach of gathering battery performance data by cell phone from their cars. Less guess work. More knowledge.

Maybe we’ll fund John Hardy to do some cycle life testing using a styrofoam cooler and a light bulb. Or maybe I’ll do it.


Jack Rickard


Monday, October 1, 2012

Carlos Ghosn and Andy Palmer at the Paris Motor Show

2012 Paris Motor Show

Carlos Ghosn was interviewed at the Paris Motor Show for Renault Zoe's launch

He said that the future of the automotive industry will be Electric, there is no doubt about it, it is just a question of percentage and how fast it will grown

He also mentionned the poor count of charge infrastrutures and his will to accelerate this key point for EV adoption



He repeated that there is zero problem with the Nissan LEAF battery: "Z-E-R-O Problem", look at his hand ;-)

He is happy with the French government incentives encouraging and helping people to buy electric cars 





Andy Palmer presented the Terra Fuell Cell Prototype but did not say a word about the LEAF battery capacity loss problem (or did I missed something ?)

Wednesday, September 26, 2012

Andy Palmer will talk to Nissan LEAF owners from the Paris Motor Show


Just a quick update from Nissan's Facebook page about the LEAF battery capacity loss in Arizona: Executive Vice President, Andy Palmer, will be answering LEAF owners' questions live from the 2012 Paris Motor Show





Nissan’s Open Letter To The LEAF Community, Starts Independent Advisory Board On Battery Capacity Loss

At this point most readers are aware that many Nissan LEAFs in very hot southern climates, like that of Phoenix, Arizona, have experienced some battery capacity loss, which has been translate by Nissan’s on board instrumention as “bars lost.” The debate has been how much loss has there been, is Nissan’s instrumentation over exaggerating that loss, and what is an acceptable amount to lose?

Understandably, Nissan has been more than a little guarded on the subject, and several theories have been floated(instrument failure, heat, mileage, driving style of those with loss) by the company ahead of results from actual testing of consumers cars done by Nissan at their testing facility in Casa Grande, Arizona.

Just recently Mark Perry, Nissan’s Director of Product Planning and Advanced Tech, said that LEAFs, on the average, are still on a “glide path” to 76% capacity after 5 years/60,000 miles, very close to the expected national average of 80% .

Nissan has also decided to convene an independent global advisory board, which is to headed up by Chelsea Sexton, noted EV advocate. This board will also examine the issues and recommend a course of action for the company to follow, as well as aid Nissan in communicating better with their customers.

Nissan Exec Carla Bailo has issued an official letter to the LEAF community via Facebook and MyNissanLEAF.com announcing the test results and the formation of this advisory committee:

Carla Bailo, Senior Vice President, 
Research & Development – Nissan Americas

Happy eve of National Plug In Day. We’re excited that Nissan LEAF owners are gathering nationally tomorrow to celebrate zero-emission motoring, and appreciate that so many of you are sharing your enthusiasm with others. You are truly our best ambassadors to the next generation of passionate EV drivers.

We also want to update you, the LEAF community, on our findings regarding battery capacity loss concerns expressed by a number of owners in the Phoenix market. Nissan takes customer concerns seriously, and we know many of you have been interested to hear what we’ve learned in our thorough investigation, and what it all means.

We identified seven LEAF owners in the Phoenix area who had reported concerns with their vehicles. With their agreement we brought the cars to Nissan’s Arizona test facility, where we removed the batteries for evaluation, measured capacity, and conducted voltage testing on individual battery cells. These tests were diagnostic only; no modifications were performed to the battery packs themselves.

After returning cars to their owners, we analyzed the results of our tests, with specific emphasis on the rate of actual capacity loss for each vehicle. Our goals were simple: to determine 1) if there were any defects in materials or workmanship in the individual batteries or vehicle systems; 2) if the batteries were performing to specification; and 3)their performance relative to the global LEAF population.

This week, we will meet with these LEAF owners to share our findings on their individual vehicles. In the mean time, we can report the following overall findings:
The Nissan LEAFs inspected in Arizona are operating to specification and their battery capacity loss over time is consistent with their usage and operating environment. No battery defects were found.
A small number of Nissan LEAF owners in Arizona are experiencing a greater than average battery capacity loss due to their unique usage cycle, which includes operating mileages that are higher than average in a high-temperature environment over a short period of time.

While we understand that some LEAF owners are concerned about battery capacity loss, we want all owners to remember that all battery-electric vehicles – and all lithium-ion batteries – demonstrate capacity loss over time. So while your LEAF may have been able to travel a certain distance or more on a charge when new, its range will decrease as the battery ages, miles accumulate and gradual capacity loss occurs. This loss in capacity will occur most rapidly in the early part of your battery’s life, but the rate should decrease over time. Information on gradual battery capacity loss is available in the paperwork that was delivered with your vehicle, in the owner’s manual and on the many vehicle resources available athttp://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/.

It is also important to put the scope of these concerns in perspective. Globally, there are more than 38,000 Nissan LEAFs on the road that have travelled more than 100 million zero-emission miles, and we expect these vehicles, in normal operating conditions, to retain 80 percent of battery capacity after five years. As each user’s operating characteristics are unique and many factors impact battery capacity, we can expect some vehicles to have greater than 80 percent capacity at five years, and some vehicles to have less. In Arizona, we have approximately 450 LEAFs on the road. Based on actual vehicle data, we project the average vehicle in that market to have battery capacity of 76 percent after five years – or a few percentage points lower than the global estimate. Some vehicles in Arizona will be above this average, and some below. Factors that may account for this differential include extreme heat, high speed, high annual mileage and charging method and frequency of the Nissan LEAFs in the Phoenix market.

We at Nissan stand by our product, and we also stand by our customers. Recently, we’ve asked Chelsea Sexton, a passionate advanced technology advocate, to convene an independent global advisory board. Members would be selected by Chelsea, not Nissan, and they would recommend their own mandate, but our hope is that they would hold up a mirror to us and help us to be more open and approachable in our communication and to advise us on our strategy. We should have more information on the advisory board in a few weeks.

As we work with individual owners to ensure their satisfaction, we are appreciative of your continued support of both the Nissan LEAF and the electric vehicle movement, overall. We look forward to continuing our dialogue here in the MyNissanLEAF forum and within the Nissan LEAF community.

Best Regards,
Carla Bailo
Senior Vice President, Research & Development – Nissan Americas


Source: InsideEVs & Nissan

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